Last week, Roger Hannigan Gilson published an article in the Times Union about the charter change initiative in Hudson: "Experts question Hudson proposal to create city manager." The article caused quite a stir. Minutes after I discovered the article, I received an email from "The Hauntsman" snidely challenging me to link to it. (I was already preparing to do so.) Opponents of the charter change initiative--Peter Frank, Caitie Hilverman, and others--posted links to it on Facebook, touting the notion that experts agreed with them. What the experts found most problematic with the charter change proposal was the veto power given to the city manager.
Earlier this week, four days after the article was originally published, this correction appeared in the online version of the article:
Note: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated the city manager would have the power to veto legislation passed by the Common Council. The manager can only veto budget reductions.
The updated article can be found here.
It appears the experts consulted may not have read the proposed changes to the charter carefully, or Gilson may have provided them with an inaccurate synopsis of what was being proposed. Either way, we don't really know what the expert opinion of the proposed charter changes would have been had they been working with accurate and complete information.
COPYRIGHT 2025 CAROLE OSTERINK
The veto issue is one of the two highlighted in the article, but is the only one that proponents of *this* charter change have addressed. I would imagine because the other is spot on.
ReplyDeleteIn the interest of Gossips reader having more than just cherry-picked information (quoting from the article):
'Strome took issue with the mayor not having a vote on the Common Council. In the traditional council-manager form of government, the mayor has a vote on the council and acts as its president, he said. He added it was “most unusual” for the mayor to not have this power and instead have the job of “basically just being someone to run around town and cut ribbons and go to dinners,” suggesting it would be difficult to find someone to run for the position as redefined by Hudson Charter Change'
'Ithaca switched to a council-manager form of government at the beginning of 2024 — though its mayor presides over Common Council meetings and appoints boards and commissioners, powers the Hudson mayor would not have. Ithaca Common Council member Margaret Fabrizio said she had learned it was important that the city manager “delivers impartial, objective information to the council and the mayor,” and that the city manager “covers more than one angle on an issue.”'
Because our proposed amendment maintains an office of mayor as a ceremonial and advisory position, we still keep a council president. This latter position fulfills the role of a mayor in a model without a president.
ReplyDeleteCan you point to any other NYS municipalities that utilize a similar framework, where there are no city-wide elected positions with a vote in the municipality's legislative body? Curious about the inspiration for deviating from typical council-manager forms of government, and what the Charter Review team thinks is beneficial about that deviation.
DeleteGuess not.
DeleteThe City of New York comes to mind.
DeleteThe NYC mayor, like most mayors, signs (or vetoes) legislation that is passed by the Council. So while they do not have a vote, they certainly have a role.
DeleteI might suggest that a 51-person Council elected across a city of 8+ million people is not an ideal point of comparison.
City of Newburgh NY.
DeleteDavid - the City of Newburgh's City Council includes two at-large (ie, elected by the entire city) seats.
DeleteI'm sure there are examples out there, that was a genuine question, not a challenge. And as my second question asks, I'm interested to know which examples were studied and what benefits those examples conferred. The proposed charter contains some unusual elements; it would be helpful to know why these unusual elements were chosen rather than the usual.
Buffalo, Binghamton
DeleteThe mayor of NYC is not a member of its legislative body. And the size of NYC’s council is predicated on its population — as is Hudson’s. They have 8m+; we have 5500. It’s one person one vote under our federal and state constitutions. So it’s an ideal point of comparison. As is Toledo, OH and Sacramento and Newburgh, NY and … it’s proportional representation.
DeleteYes, I pointed out that the NYC mayor was not a member of the legislative body, but did play a role in that city’s legislation through signing or vetoing resolutions. I think my point about NYC’s size was that what works for a city of 8m+ doesn’t necessarily map onto a city of 5500. That shouldn’t be controversial, I would hope.
DeleteI’m still more curious about answers to my second question.
Chris - why can't the mayor type figure just run for Council if they want a vote on the common council... there is an explosion of paid and unpaid roles in this City and most of government... is that the American Dream?
ReplyDeleteParalysis through bureaucracy, participation trophies, and political patronage... Hudson is the size of a large African high-school... leave the politics for DC / Albany.
re: Carole post on the Time Union Article:
1️⃣ The original article is the definition of misinformation, at least when biased local "community organizers" may now continue to share it until the end of time... after knowing that it contains a major error.
(@Roger, people always mentioned you as the only journalist/writer in the area doing a good and fair job... this is so unfortunate. How did this happen, did you not run the core facts by the Charter Change organizers before you asked the "experts" for their opinions and hit publish? Journalism 101.)
This is like asking experts about the US Constitution and leaving out the "separation of powers" part...
2️⃣ Caitie and Peter - would you be high integrity and post a correction comment on your original FB posts? (I will email this to you directly with the request)
3️⃣ Dear Hauntsman - this is not the 1900s... put on your big boy/girl pants and create your own blog... threatening anonymous emails to Gossips, or the employers and clients of Charter Change organizers... as you have now done repeatedly... is pretty beta, but also unproductive and cowardly.
Well you know what George Carlin (correctly) said about the American Dream.
DeleteThinking that "politics" should only exist at the federal and state levels is...interesting.
FYI FNI: Not that this part of your reply has anything to do with my comments and questions, but: "there is an explosion of paid and unpaid roles in this City and most of government" is--at least in the "most government" sense--not accurate. The increase in government workers over the past decade is about 5.5%; almost the same exact increase as the 5.6% in the labor force over that time.
DeleteHi Chris!
DeleteFirst - you could win me over with most any data reference... but what is the source for your % reference of public workers? I'd love to look into this more.
Second - the devil is in the details...
🚨 At the risk of giving some lefty locals a heart attack (Verity, avert your gaze) I am going to reference Brookings:
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/is-government-too-big-reflections-on-the-size-and-composition-of-todays-federal-government/
Look at Figure 2: We all talk about the Civil Service jobs (dark blue), but look at how "Contract(er)" the orange part of the chart, is the largest of all. Not even counting grey; "Grant"
The Hudson version of orange contractors/grants is Hudson's Housing Justice Director and her 40% salary increase shortly after commencing a relationship with the mayor.
re: George Carlin reference.
Are you referring to his joke/lament; "That's why they call it the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it."?
You can predict my response... the American Dream is very much within reach for those who don't sleep on it, take personal responsibility, and follow the "Success Sequence"; 1) finish high-school, 2) get a full-time job 3) marry before having children, and in that order.
See here: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/an-agenda-for-reducing-poverty-and-improving-opportunity-2/
Again, referencing Brookings and not Cato or others with even stronger arguments and data so that Joe does not feel compelled to weigh in during a busy Friday morning when he has to make plans for our future.
re: "Thinking that "politics" should only exist at the federal and state levels is...interesting."
I guess it is just a dream... but in more successful and higher ambition environments people do not see being the mayor of a 5000 person town as the pinnacle of their careers.. but rather an intentionally short-term, unpaid, civic duty to serve their neighbors and make the place better for their kids.... while they work real jobs and pay taxes.
🇺🇸 Chris... on your "American Dream" point... you can go to any Chinese, Russian, EU, and American consulate in the world today... and the line outside the American one is longer... and btw, the Americans are the only ones who have a free lottery for entry (Diversity Visa Program), and one that is completely oversubscribed.
So while America is certainly not perfect, and I believe more local career politicians will not make it better, faster... you can tell a lot about whether walls are built to keep people in versus out.
I think you misunderstand me, FNI/HV. I'm not trying to win you over. There's nothing to gain. I'm pointing out bad information. Such as:
DeleteThe "Success Sequence" isn't a process for achieving the American Dream; it's a process for *avoiding poverty*. Perhaps that is your definition of "the American Dream"; perhaps, as you indicated, it's "yeah America is rough, but you should see these other countries". I don't believe that's what most people think about should they ever find themselves thinking about "the American Dream".
Re: your contractor argument - here's some data: https://www.famr.us/learn/top-government-contractors/
The vast majority of contractor expenses are for defense and pharmaceuticals.
I'd also point out that your own reference states "[t]he federal government’s workforce has remained largely unchanged in size for over 50 years, even as the U.S. population has grown by 68%", which just reinforces my original point about employees v labor force.
In any event: the mindset that all one needs to do in this (or any) country to get ahead is work hard is absurd on its face. Political, economic and institutional factors all influence a given individual's "success", as does when and where they're born (and perhaps most importantly, to whom). Ignoring that is ignoring reality.
Hi Chris -
DeleteWe can both quote select sentences from the same reference to make our case. Federal employment can be relatively inline with population growth (and flat), federal contractor increases can be growing to a 2:1 ratio of contractor: federal employees, thereby increasing total government spend and taxes, and overall government efficiency can be flat or not improving at the same rate as the private sector efficiency.
But is the goal of government employment to keep up with population growth, or private sector job growth? Is the goal of government to create jobs, or to create the conditions for the private sector to create jobs?
Or is it to use tax payer dollars in the most efficient way possible to deliver services that only a government can provide (like defense, judicial and public safety systems, core infrastructure). I'd lean on the latter and perhaps you lean towards the former? And this is the oldest political question in the world with pendulum swings over time... luckily for me (and I'd argue for you) America's constitution and culture (outside NY) leans more towards limiting government.
This question applied to Hudson... is it wise to have a $1m budget deficit a year... while population decreases... or for the local government serving 5000 souls to take over or supplement functions reserved for state and federal governments in other states.
re: Success Sequence and your view that hard work is not sufficient... it sounds like you may believe America is systemically X or Y bad thing. I believe America is systemically opportunity rich.
But let's take the extreme view... let's say a kid grows up in a very bad part of the America...
A) is that kid better off if we tell him "look kid, no matter what you do it will be harder for you, there will always be a ceiling, many people believe that your individual effort will be decoupled from your success... so you should really play the victim drum and blame your circumstances whenever you can, and insist on double standards"
or
B) is that kid better off if we tell him "look kid, you weren't born the son of a bitcoin billionaire but just being here in America you are already in the top quartile of the world, and with hard work and personal responsibility you can do anything, though it may be harder but it will mean more when you win, and then share examples from Oprah, Carnegie, Ralph Lauren, Sotomayor, Dolly Parton, or Ursula Burns of the world to inspire him.
I guarantee, with other conditions remaining the same, scenario B will almost always lead to a better outcome for the kid and for society.
And you might think that "the mindset that all one needs to do in this (or any) country to get ahead is work hard is absurd on its face."
Are you sure you are not French? 😉
High-agency people would disagree with you. And hard work does of course not 100% guarantee total success... nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes... but it sure increases your odds and raises the floor of outcomes.
In other countries it is a lot less likely than in America. And in many other countries your immutable traits very much pre-determine your outcome (female in conservative Arab world, Uyghurs in China etc.)
You may enjoy this research project: https://opportunityinsights.org/neighborhoods/
I mentioned it before, it acknowledges, like I do and you argue here, that there are obviously high and low "opportunity zones"... but there is a data driven way of moving folks towards higher opportunity.
~
And while this is interesting.. this thread is about the journalistic error of Roger Hannigan Gilson that misinformed readers... and how a 4 days late correction is not helpful.
Please spread the word that the City Manager would not be able to veto legislation 😘
And please write more about your ideas for making American and/or Hudson a better place.
FNI, some advice for you: basing your arguments on your own assumptions is a bad idea.
DeleteIn your “a” vs, “b” scenario, you (predictably) ask if we should encourage kids to be victims, as if that is the only recourse to finding out you’re playing a rigged game. It’s myopic and narrow-minded, but I understand that it’s a rhetorical party trick employed by those who enjoy (and benefit from) the status quo.
Another option for those kids is to work to change the system(s) that create such inequality of opportunity. Which many of them are doing.
I’ll stick to my day job (and evening meetings) where I’m actively making positive changes for our neighbors in Hudson and throughout the county and region, and leave the writing to the people whose helpfulness ends at IG accounts and blogs.
Hi Chris -
Delete(I doubt anyone is reading this old thread anymore but I will answer your comment, and insult, with a few references and a question)
1️⃣ re: "FNI, some advice for you: basing your arguments on your own assumptions is a bad idea.
In your “a” vs, “b” scenario, you (predictably) ask if we should encourage kids to be victims, as if that is the only recourse to finding out you’re playing a rigged game. It’s myopic and narrow-minded, but I understand that it’s a rhetorical party trick employed by those who enjoy (and benefit from) the status quo."
Nope… I am merely arguing for personal responsibility / hard work is a necessary, but in some very rare cases, especially in America, insufficient condition. These are not my personal observations…
Maybe this heretical idea will be easier to appreciate if I share it in the words of former presidents, major religious narratives, and The King of New York:
🇺🇸 Obama's More Perfect Union Speech: "embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past...
It means taking full responsibility for our own lives—by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism."
⛪️ Galatians 6:5; "for each one should carry their own load."
🕌 Quran Surah 13:11; "Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves."
🏫 I am sure you know Angela's Duckworth's research on grit in education (Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance/Simon & Schuster 2016/ ) or we can just go back to Jay-Z:
🎤 "Blaming only gets you so far / I’m a star, I was born to disregard / The systemic, the epidemic / I broke the cycle, now it’s my turn to live it."
In "Legacy" on his album 4:44 (2017) - Jay-Z directly rejects systemic blame and victimhood, stressing personal responsibility for breaking free and succeeding.
2️⃣ re: Your comment "Another option for those kids is to work to change the system(s) that create such inequality of opportunity. Which many of them are doing."
Of course. Who is stopping them? Aren't we subsiding many of them with our tax dollars to just that.
But maybe they should first go see what Singapore and Salt Lake City is doing to improve upward mobility… (The Equality of Opportunity Project, led by Raj Chetty, Stanford University. Data from "The Opportunity Atlas," published 2018.)... because Hudson does not seem to be making more progress with more resources... unlike the Singaporeans and Mormons
🤔 I wonder why—what could it be? A total mystery.
Could it be hard work and culture, two things available to everyone?
3️⃣ Re: your comment "I’ll stick to my day job (and evening meetings) where I’m actively making positive changes for our neighbors in Hudson and throughout the county and region,"
Great - you do that. Thank you for your service. But question… I am sure you are very sincere in the work you do and in the "inputs" … but how are you measuring the results.. the outputs? How do you know it is a "positive change"?
Is what you are doing working? I am going to assume it is… and therefore would love to know more about it because many programs in this County seem to generate a lot of jobs and social status for its founders, workers, volunteers, and donors, but I am still looking for evidence of repeatable and above average successful outcomes for the recipients.
If what you are doing works let's scale it up. Would love to help you do that.
4️⃣ re: "and leave the writing to the people whose helpfulness ends at IG accounts and blogs."
DeleteChris… you were so close… so very close to an ok comment and then you had to ruin it by… to use your own words: "base your arguments on your own assumptions"
You make the mistake you accuse others of… assumptions. How do you know Gossips' commenters do not do good things for their communities?
Aren't you a Gossips commentator... and didn't you just claim you do good things. 🙃
You may be surprised to know that other Gossips commenters, certainly readers, pay more than $5m a year in taxes.. that is a lot of money for public programs.
They do not get that back in public services.
Other commenters subsidize dozens of students in actually resource poor environments…
But even if a Gossips commentator did none of that, and just pointed out a good idea for Hudson, that is great too.
5️⃣ Finally, when you say "It’s myopic and narrow-minded, but I understand that it’s a rhetorical party trick employed by those who enjoy (and benefit from) the status quo"
The main beneficiary of the status quo in Hudson is current Mayor Kamal Johnson whose household is netting more than $160k a year from the City of Hudson (population ~5000) for what used to be a part-time job with a $25k honorarium, and one that did not exist, just a few years ago.
~
While I enjoy our chats (they remind me of my public high school days debating monolingual friends from the right side of the tracks who repeated their parents’ ideas without really understanding the underlying first principles) where does that leave us…
- you don't like the Charter Change proposal based on the updates to the mayoral role, which John already explained. Ok, don't vote for it then.
- And you think America is not fair and people are born with different sets of opportunities. Ok. No one said life is fair.
But in the future let's move the conversation forward.
❓ What is your original idea to make Hudson better and increase real opportunity and outcomes?
Can you please write an original essay, it could be very short, and share with Hudson's residents how to make things better? We are all unified in that end goal, and may have respectful differences on how to get there more efficiently and fairly.
Right now the City has a ~$1m annual deficit (thank you Tom and Kamal), the school system is in the bottom 10% of NYS (#932 out of 1017)**, and there seems to be more education/social NGO's than coffee shops... which is saying something.
In the above thread others propose a simple Charter Change update to fix the city and a culture change to fix educational and socio-economic outcomes.
What do you propose?
References:
**Data from Public School Review, based on 2021-2022 NYSED combined math and reading proficiency testing for Hudson City School District.
“The main beneficiary of the status quo in Hudson is current Mayor Kamal Johnson […]”
DeleteHahaha, thank you, FNI. This statement is ridiculous enough that I now feel I can return to my own status quo of ignoring everything you write.
Chris -
DeleteYou are so out of touch you do not realize how many residents agree with the fact that Kamal's skyrocketing comp and undisclosed conflicts of interests is troubling.
Just this morning I just shared the facts with local business owners and one remarked that they see NYC based celebrities in Hudson more than the mayor.
Do return to your status quo, whatever that is, and I guess that means not sharing your own ideas for making Hudson better or sharing more about your work that apparently drives 'positive changes'.
If it is so good... why not share the evidence?
It’s a shame that such a crucial detail of the story was an error. Unfortunately in our fast paced news cycle, especially with social media shares and paywalls, people won’t see the correction since most only read the headlines.
ReplyDeleteOn the second point of debate, many Manager-Council systems (like Cambridge, MA, a super progressive AND well ran city) bestow the title of “mayor” to the council member that is elected by said council to be the presiding officer, also called “speaker” or in Hudson “president.” That person not only runs the meetings and votes, but serve as the ceremonial “head of state.” If I wrote the charter reform plan I would have done it that way. I also would have added 2 “at-large” council members to the 5 ward representatives. But I didn’t write it, so that’s all just fluff from my brain. I suspect that the writers of this revision understood that many in Hudson understand tradition more than they do democratic theory so they kept the mayor as a separate ceremonial role to make the change easier to swallow.
These are all important things to debate and would love to see an informative and passionate discussion in the Common Council. Unfortunately Tom “Stonewall” DePietro is going to prevent that from happening. It’s politically a bad decision on his part because he could have used this opportunity to explain why he thinks this particular petition is not ideal and how the Council could do it better if the public gives them the chance and time. But now this will go on to the voters, along with the message that our government leaders do not care what we think and that voters have no other recourse than beating them at the ballot box. Unless he’s planning on preventing it from making it to the ballot via legal chicanery. Either way: game on!
At one point we did away with the mayor position. But in our conversations with folks and in our deliberations we decided that the office has long history in the city and found a way to keep it. And the problem with at-large seats generally is that they are understood to be less representative than district reps.
DeleteMakes sense, John. Hudson loves its history.
DeleteYou say that at-large seats are less representative? But the current, and only at-large seat on the council is a shining beacon of approachability and really has his finger on the pulse of the citizenry. A true “man of the people.” Books will be written about him, that I can tell you.